What is The Audacity's Jess McLeod watching?
On trans and non-binary representation on TV and working with Hannah Einbinder on the set of Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma.
what are they watching? is an interview series for my newsletter in which I chat with a creative about television itself. Previous interviews include Hasan Piker, Toheeb Jimoh, Janicza Bravo, Chelsea Peretti, and Jeff Hiller.
This time around, I had the pleasure of speaking with Jess McLeod who recently played a pivotal role in The Audacity as tech wiz Harper—a role that has got them upgraded to cast regular for the second season of the silicon valley drama. They also wrote, directed, and starred in She’s Nonbinary, a short film currently making its way through the festival circuit and executive produced by Bob Odenkirk and Jane Schoenbrun.
I like to start these interviews by asking: What are you watching on television lately and enjoying?
I just finished DTF St. Louis for the second time. I think it’s so genius. I’m obsessed with it, it takes up so much space in my brain. I think Steven Conrad is so smart. I’m such a fan of anything that incorporates ASL, so that was a big draw for me too. It’s beautifully shot, and it’s so funny, and doesn’t take itself too seriously, which I really like.
What were your foundational shows, the ones that made an impact on you?
Gilmore Girls definitely is the big one, Totally Spies, Kim Possible. I really truly did spend so much of my teenage life just rewatching Gilmore Girls again and again and again and again. I was obsessed with it. I was an only child, single mom thing. Our dynamic looked very different, but I just love the way it’s written. It’s funny, the dialogue really grabs you, and then I think there’s a romantic thing about a small town, I’m from Victoria. I just saw a lot of myself in it. I also think part of the reason why it took me so long to transition—there’s many reasons—but that show was so big because I really was identifying so much with Rory Gilmore even though a lot of me is very different than Rory Gilmore.
Can you tell me a bit about The Audacity’s casting process? Were they specifically looking for someone non-binary to play Harper?
Great question. The short answer is no, Harper was written as a woman, and Lucky, who is Duncan’s assistant, was actually written as a non-binary person. I only got an audition for Harper, and it was only supposed to be three episodes. I was like okay, whatever, a bunch of tech jargon on this really cool show, great. As we were shooting, they realized that the character would be in many more episodes than they thought, so yeah, they changed the character of Harper to be non-binary for me.
What do you make of Harper and Duncan’s dynamic? It feels like Harper is simultaneously disgusted and in awe of him?
At times they kind of are like, You’re dumb and you’re annoying, and then I think they’re almost inspired by him. He is in many ways everything they’re not. There’s an admiration whether they would admit that or not, especially at his ability to deal with people. He’s very headstrong and he’s a good talker, Harper is not that. Harper is not a good talker, and Harper does not inspire confidence in people, so they look up to him in that way. It is a really interesting dynamic.
I never saw myself in a show like this. It’s been amazing, but I just did not ever foresee that this would be something I would do. My relationship with Billy…we are so different, but we really did get along quite well, we are kind of silly together, that was surprising. I think our dynamic came off on screen in a way that surprised everybody, and so that’s kind of why they’ve made them such a twosome in the first season. Very opposites attract dynamic, I guess.
You’ve been upped to series regular for season two—are you allowed to say if we’ll be getting to know Harper more, especially with what they get up to outside of work?
I think yes. I don’t have the whole season yet, so I can’t say exactly, but I’m already getting to know different sides of them in the first two episodes.
I noticed you weren’t submitted to the Emmys alongside the rest of the cast of the show, was that your decision?
No, not my call. I wasn’t really a big part of the publicity for season one, just because that was…not in my contract. They kept adding me into more episodes, I was truly barely supposed to be in the show. So I think they’re just catching up, but I’m just happy to be there. There’s so many great people in the show who should be recognized for their work, and if that happens for me later, great, but if it doesn’t, also fine!
I also wanted to ask about gendered categories at award shows more generally. What is your perspective on that, how do you decide which category to submit to?
To be honest, I haven’t thought too much about it. The awards that I have been nominated for have all been in femme categories. The whole world of awards is kind of contrived in a way anyway, it’s so subjective, I wouldn’t want non-gendered categories to take away spots or recognition away for people—it’s important that there’s equality in it. We’re probably moving into a place I hope where there’s enough non-binary trans representation that the big committees who are doing these awards will have to start talking about what that means for categorization, but I don’t know enough about the process to weigh in. I’m excited that it’s even a conversation that’s happening.
I feel like we are only scratching the surface on television of representations of gender and queerness. Are there any characters or arcs that come to mind in which you felt you saw yourself or part of yourself represented?
I Saw the TV Glow really captured the experience of what it’s felt like internally for me to transition in a way that I don’t think I could even put into words. That movie really shifted a lot for me. In general, a lot of trans characters that we’re seeing on screen are written by very well-meaning cisgender people…I would be really excited to see, especially in TV, more trans stories being written by people that really understand and know the experience. One of the best things about Audacity and Harper is that that part of their character is not really central, and I don’t think it should be.
It’s nice to just have trans people on screen, whether they’re playing a trans character or not, but just seeing them there. Like Eva Victor being on TV for so many years, just being themself, is really powerful. It’s in some ways an easier bridge for a cisgender person to simply witness a trans person existing, rather than need it to be a commentary on gender and identity. That’s a big thing I like about Harper on the show.
I totally hear you. That’s something I loved from Star Trek: Discovery’s numerous non-binary characters as opposed to like, that “viral” Landman scene, if you saw anything about that…
Yes, and I will neglect to comment on that, but I am right there with you. [Laughs]. Billy actually said this in a way that I was like, Oh my god. He said Duncan has such issues with men and women, so it actually really makes sense that the one person who he ends up aligning with is not part of either camp. It neutralizes him in a way, because he doesn’t know how to project upon them his insecurities about his dad or his wife. So it makes him actually take them in as a person in real time.
That is…fascinating. Wow, Billy Magnussen’s mind! This brings to mind how no one on The Audacity has sex.
I know right! I was expecting there to be much more sexual deviance in the world. There’s quite a lot of sexual harassment in the tech world, especially because it’s just so filled with men, I would be really interested to see a comic spin on that for either Meaghan Rath’s character or my character. I think Meaghan can do literally anything, I would love to see her fuck someone up in a big way should they step to her. But yeah, everyone does feel very asexual in the show.
Is there a character that you’ve played so far that you feel is most aligned with like who you are as Jess?
Honestly, in the things that I’m trying to make as a filmmaker, obviously that’s the answer. Nobody else can write from that experience. If I wasn’t doing that, I might feel a little bit more out in the middle of the ocean, looking around, being like, does anybody understand me? Having the ability to write and direct my own stuff has been huge for me, and I know a lot of my trans friends who are actors are also doing that. We have to tell our own stories to be fully represented.
I know this is a film but since we stan Hannah Einbinder and Gillian Anderson in this house, what can you say about your experience working with them on Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma? Filmed on Vancouver Island, too!
I know, when I found out that it was shooting on the island I texted my agent immediately, I was like, I will do anything. I didn’t get to work with Gillian, which is devastating, obviously, but I got to work with Hannah who is so awesome and so funny, so down to earth, a really great number one on the call sheet to have. I didn’t have a lot to do in the movie, but when I was there, it was amazing, and I knew a lot of the crew. I truly think Jane Schoenbrun is the voice of our time. I don’t know that there’s anybody else with such a specific view on life and the experience of being a person, who is also so able to communicate that in a visual medium.
If you could be dropped into any television world, which sort of TV world would you drop yourself into?
I would love to do more sci-fi stuff. I feel like non-binary people should be playing every little creature, you know? I just feel like that’s our lane. So yeah, I want to do stuff that’s really weird and off the wall. Maybe I’m wearing some prosthetics and crawling around. Like a Widow’s Bay, or something, get really freaky with it
One last question before I let you go: What’s your favourite TV-watching snack?
This is such a lame and cliché answer, but I really love popcorn. I probably eat popcorn every day. I love a popcorn. I was a big seasoning on my popcorn person, I would have all these little shakers, we haven’t really been back there in a while. As I’m talking about this, I think I need to go back to the store, I need to get creative again.
Audacity hive rise up!!